Oleinu - "Shehem Mishtachavim" etc.
- meirk
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29 יונ 2008 13:15 #413
מאת meirk
Meir Koschland
Oleinu - "Shehem Mishtachavim" etc. נוצר על ידי meirk
In the Roedelheim, in Oleinu, there isn't "shehem mishtachavim lehevel velorik". Are these words censored? Or is minhag aschkenaz not to say this?
Thanks!
Meir
Thanks!
Meir
Meir Koschland
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- Michael
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30 יונ 2008 01:19 #415
מאת Michael
תגובה מMichael בדיון Oleinu - "Shehem Mishtachavim" etc.
As you assumed, these words were censored. We have evidence that in Ashkenaz these words were said as long as they were remembered.
Michael FRBSH
Michael FRBSH
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30 יונ 2008 01:20 #416
מאת Michael
תגובה מMichael בדיון Oleinu - "Shehem Mishtachavim" etc.
I would like to add, that in
Divrei Kehillos
pg 168, when talking about Oleinu Leshabe'ach of Rosh Hashono (Musaf), he mentions that the tzibbur says quietly Shehem untill Lo Youshia. So it is clear that this minhag was still kept in his days (year 5579). It is also quite clear from the way Oleinu is mentioned to be said in Divrei Kehillos (until after kechol Hamounom quietly, and then loud again from Shehoo Nouteh Shomayim) that these words were said too and therefore purposely everything was said quietly. And this was of saying Oleinu can be still heard in Chazzan Weis's cassettes.
Michael
Michael
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- ynathan
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01 יול 2008 04:07 #419
מאת ynathan
תגובה מynathan בדיון Oleinu - "Shehem Mishtachavim" etc.
In the Siddur Hamekubal Horav Hirtz (Thuhingen, 5320) it is mentioned. I'm quoting from memory "as these words describe the worst of all the Klipos (I don't remember the exact wording), it is to be said without a voice (which I imagine means either a whisper or just in the mind without verbalizing).
Yehuda Nathan
Yehuda Nathan
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- meirk
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01 יול 2008 13:27 #423
מאת meirk
Meir Koschland
תגובה מmeirk בדיון Oleinu - "Shehem Mishtachavim" etc.
Thanks for the answers!
And can we say the same about "shelau ossani nochri"? Is it supposed to be "nochri" or "goi".
Is there a sidur yeke meduyak with these corrections? (as "shehem mishtachavim...")
Thanks!
Meir
And can we say the same about "shelau ossani nochri"? Is it supposed to be "nochri" or "goi".
Is there a sidur yeke meduyak with these corrections? (as "shehem mishtachavim...")
Thanks!
Meir
Meir Koschland
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04 יול 2008 03:40 #427
מאת Michael
תגובה מMichael בדיון Oleinu - "Shehem Mishtachavim" etc.
The old Minhag is Shelou Osani Goi. This minhag was kept in Frankfurt until today, therefore in Washington Heights and in KAYJ this is the nusach said.
The Censors were not happy with Goi, so they changed it to Shelou Osani Yishmoel or Akum or Kusi (or She'osani Yisro'el). Shelou Osani Nochri came as a compromise.
Michael FRBSH
p.s. Machon Moreshes Ashkenaz (MMA) is working on a new Siddur, without the censors changes.
The Censors were not happy with Goi, so they changed it to Shelou Osani Yishmoel or Akum or Kusi (or She'osani Yisro'el). Shelou Osani Nochri came as a compromise.
Michael FRBSH
p.s. Machon Moreshes Ashkenaz (MMA) is working on a new Siddur, without the censors changes.
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- LKassel
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07 אוק 2008 17:24 #650
מאת LKassel
תגובה מLKassel בדיון Oleinu - "Shehem Mishtachavim" etc.
It was said that Minhag Ashkenaz is to said the uncensored version of Oleinu.
My understanding of the closing of the Ark during recitation of Oleinu in Mussaf of Roch Hashana is that it reflects the dismay of the Jews that they were forced to change the text of their prayer. I heard in the same vein that in some places the Rabbi would spit at this very moment.
Nowadays we do not fear the censors and Rabbi Hamburger wrote to both say the uncensored version and close the Ark. What signification to the closing of the Ark are we giving then?
Gmar Hatima Tova
Laurent Kassel
My understanding of the closing of the Ark during recitation of Oleinu in Mussaf of Roch Hashana is that it reflects the dismay of the Jews that they were forced to change the text of their prayer. I heard in the same vein that in some places the Rabbi would spit at this very moment.
Nowadays we do not fear the censors and Rabbi Hamburger wrote to both say the uncensored version and close the Ark. What signification to the closing of the Ark are we giving then?
Gmar Hatima Tova
Laurent Kassel
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08 אוק 2008 03:22 #652
מאת Michael
תגובה מMichael בדיון Oleinu - "Shehem Mishtachavim" etc.
The reason we close the ark is because we do not want to mention the idols of the Goyyim next to the Aron Kodesh. This applies mostly to Shehem Mishtachavim Lohevel Vorik.
Michael FRBSH
Michael FRBSH
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- MPerlman
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13 אוג 2009 01:03 #1297
מאת MPerlman
MPerlman
תגובה מMPerlman בדיון Oleinu - "Shehem Mishtachavim" etc.
The censors were sometimes knowledgeable about the words they were changing and sometimes complete imbeciles. In some Siddurim the censor changed the words "Goi Echad Ba'aretz" in Mincha for Shabbos to "Nochri Echad Ba'aretz".Michael wrote: The Censors were not happy with Goi, so they changed it to Shelou Osani Yishmoel or Akum or Kusi (or She'osani Yisro'el). Shelou Osani Nochri came as a compromise.
MPerlman
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