Saying Av Horachamim after Ashrei - Source, change?
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16 יונ 2009 10:30 #1072
מאת Litvak
Saying Av Horachamim after Ashrei - Source, change? נוצר על ידי Litvak
Someone recently sent me the following question -
'It appears that in Mesores Ashkenaz, on the Shabbosos in which one says Av Horachamim before Musaf, one does so after Ashrei. Is the source of the Minhag known, and when did it change?'
Not knowing the answer, I am submitting it here, with the hope of getting it answered.
Thanks in advance.
Litvak
'It appears that in Mesores Ashkenaz, on the Shabbosos in which one says Av Horachamim before Musaf, one does so after Ashrei. Is the source of the Minhag known, and when did it change?'
Not knowing the answer, I am submitting it here, with the hope of getting it answered.
Thanks in advance.
Litvak
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- Michael
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19 יונ 2009 15:37 - 20 יול 2012 21:37 #1075
מאת Michael
תגובה מMichael בדיון Saying Av Horachamim after Ashrei - Source, change?
Av Horachamim was first written after the crusades and the demolishing of the communities in Ashkenaz and France. Hazkoras Neshomos in general including the names of all of the people killed was done, next ashrei was said, and then came Av Horachamim, requesting God to remember the נאהבים ונעימים that were mentioned before. This was meant to be done twice a year, on the Shabbos before Shovu'os and the Shabbos before ט באב.
Later, in Poland, this tefilloh was shifted to be said all year around, and that is when (and where) it was moved to be before Ashrei.
Michael FRBSH
Later, in Poland, this tefilloh was shifted to be said all year around, and that is when (and where) it was moved to be before Ashrei.
Michael FRBSH
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- SBS
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21 יונ 2009 03:36 #1078
מאת SBS
תגובה מSBS בדיון Saying Av Horachamim after Ashrei - Source, change?
But why the change to before vs. after Ashrei?
Steven
Steven
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21 יונ 2009 12:30 #1079
מאת Litvak
תגובה מLitvak בדיון Saying Av Horachamim after Ashrei - Source, change?
Is there a problem of hefsek between ashrei and shmoneh esreh of musaf? Maybe minhag Polin moved it up to before Ashrei thinking along such lines. Upon reflection however, perhaps there is no such problem, as long as there is no hefsek between the kaddish after Ashrei and the return of the Sefer Torah to the Aron and musaf, so perhaps that is the reasoning of minhag Ashkenaz. Correct?
In general, one could ask why Av Harachamim was placed between krias HaTorah and musaf. Why not after shmoneh esreh of musaf or elsewhere? Because it might be neglected if placed late in the tefilloh when people are about to exit the Shul?
Litvak
In general, one could ask why Av Harachamim was placed between krias HaTorah and musaf. Why not after shmoneh esreh of musaf or elsewhere? Because it might be neglected if placed late in the tefilloh when people are about to exit the Shul?
Litvak
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- Michael
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26 יונ 2009 16:37 #1088
מאת Michael
תגובה מMichael בדיון Saying Av Horachamim after Ashrei - Source, change?
There is no problem of hefsek between Ashrei and Shmoneh Esrei of Musaf, and there is also no problem of hefsek before the Kaddish, since there are many psukim in Av Horachamim and in the Hachnoso, therefore there is a reason to say the Kaddish.
Minhag Ashkenaz to say Av Horachamim after Ashrei is brought in Arugas Habosem (Miba'alei Hatosfos), the Maharil, Minhogei Fuerth, Divrei Kehillos and many other sources. Minhag Polin is brought in Minhogei R' Isaac Tirna, the Levush, and the Mateh Ephraim. They do not give a reason for the change that was made.
It is interesting to note, that in the Baer Siddur (Avodas Yisro'el pg 233) he mentions saying Ashrei, and then mentions Av Horachamim, stating that Minhag Polin is to say it year around. It seems from him that in his days Minhag Polin said it after Ashrei as well.
Michael FRBSH
Minhag Ashkenaz to say Av Horachamim after Ashrei is brought in Arugas Habosem (Miba'alei Hatosfos), the Maharil, Minhogei Fuerth, Divrei Kehillos and many other sources. Minhag Polin is brought in Minhogei R' Isaac Tirna, the Levush, and the Mateh Ephraim. They do not give a reason for the change that was made.
It is interesting to note, that in the Baer Siddur (Avodas Yisro'el pg 233) he mentions saying Ashrei, and then mentions Av Horachamim, stating that Minhag Polin is to say it year around. It seems from him that in his days Minhag Polin said it after Ashrei as well.
Michael FRBSH
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- Melech
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28 יונ 2009 03:30 #1092
מאת Melech
תגובה מMelech בדיון Saying Av Horachamim after Ashrei - Source, change?
It's difficult to understand how the pesukim in Av Horachamim and hachnasah can be considered enough pesukim to say kaddish, when, as far as I know, the reason we don't say kaddish after krias hatorah when we lein by mincha is because we don't consider the pesukim said by hachnasah to be enough of a hefsek between the kaddish we would say after krias hatorah and the kaddish before shmoneh esreh.
Melech
Melech
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- Michael
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03 יול 2009 14:48 #1098
מאת Michael
תגובה מMichael בדיון Saying Av Horachamim after Ashrei - Source, change?
In Mincho there were no Psukim at Hachnoso, until about 200 years ago, therefore one could not say more than one Kaddish after Kri'as Hatoroh.
Michael FRBSH
Michael FRBSH
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- MPerlman
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04 אוג 2009 04:49 #1182
מאת MPerlman
תגובה מMPerlman בדיון Saying Av Horachamim after Ashrei - Source, change?
The Rokeach (Commentary to the Tefillah, Siman 102) explains that we say Kaddish on Monday & Thursday after Krias HaTorah because to wait until after Uva L'Tziyon is a big hefsek. Therefore, we do not say Kaddish after Krias HaTorah at Mincha of Shabbos because there is not such a hefsek and we are yotzei with the Kaddish before the Amidah. On Shabbos morning we cannot skip the Kaddish before the Amidah because the Kaddish before the Amidah is designed to put us into a reverent frame of mind. See all of this there.
MPerlman
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