Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
- Altgold
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27 Feb 2008 14:22 #84
by Altgold
Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home was created by Altgold
What is the accepted practice for Friday night and Shabbos day kiddush? Standing, sitting, etc. For the Shabbos day kiddush, does the Yekkish minhag begin with v'shamru?
Brian
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- Daniel
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02 Mar 2008 02:19 - 26 Jun 2014 00:44 #102
by Daniel
Replied by Daniel on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
R' Hamburger has told me that the Minhag is to stand for the Psukim and to sit for the Brachos. Therefore, while reciting ויכולו and ושמרו, the minhag is to stand. One then sits, both at night and during the day, while the brocho is being said.
On Yom Tov, since there are no psukim, one should sit for the whole Kiddush.
This was done even on Sukkos; one should sit in the sukka before the brocho of לישב בסוכה. The מהרי"ל was Makpid that the kiddush should be done sitting down (on Sukkos), unlike the רמב"ם (who says one should stand for Kiddush and only sit after the Bracha of לישב בסוכה).
Daniel
On Yom Tov, since there are no psukim, one should sit for the whole Kiddush.
This was done even on Sukkos; one should sit in the sukka before the brocho of לישב בסוכה. The מהרי"ל was Makpid that the kiddush should be done sitting down (on Sukkos), unlike the רמב"ם (who says one should stand for Kiddush and only sit after the Bracha of לישב בסוכה).
Daniel
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- Michael
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02 Mar 2008 05:25 #108
by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
I would like to add that another minhag that was in the past and today is more common, is to stand both at night and in the day, throughout the whole Kiddush.
And as for where to start the Kiddush in the morning - the minhag is to start from V'shomru as you mentioned.
Michael
And as for where to start the Kiddush in the morning - the minhag is to start from V'shomru as you mentioned.
Michael
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- SBS
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12 Aug 2009 19:43 #1284
by SBS
Replied by SBS on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
What is the correct minhag ashkenaz as it relates to standing/sitting for Kiddush and Havdala? Is it (as I practice at home) to stand for Vayechulu and then sit before saying the bracha on wine followed by the rest of Kiddush? I also sit for Havdala.
In shul I would imagine the reason it is said standing is because there is nothing recited by the Chazzan for a rabbim from a seated position so in these instances as well it is said standing.
Thanks,
Steven
In shul I would imagine the reason it is said standing is because there is nothing recited by the Chazzan for a rabbim from a seated position so in these instances as well it is said standing.
Thanks,
Steven
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- Daniel
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13 Aug 2009 14:09 - 26 Jun 2014 00:44 #1308
by Daniel
Replied by Daniel on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
I asked R' Hamburger about Havdalah:
Is the Minhag to stand or sit by Havdalah?
His response:
.(בהבדלה נהוג לעמוד. (הגר"א חידש לישב, ויש סתירה בדבריו
Daniel
Is the Minhag to stand or sit by Havdalah?
His response:
.(בהבדלה נהוג לעמוד. (הגר"א חידש לישב, ויש סתירה בדבריו
Daniel
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- Litvak
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13 Aug 2009 21:35 #1309
by Litvak
Replied by Litvak on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
What is the mekor for being noheig to stand by havdoloh? If people sit by kiddush, according to the minhog above, why should havdoloh be done differently?
In general, I heard that there is an inyan of kevius, and sitting is more 'kevius'. Also, aren't Kiddush and Havdoloh (when Shabbos comes in and leaves) related? So licheora shouldn't we treat them similarly on that basis as well?
Litvak
In general, I heard that there is an inyan of kevius, and sitting is more 'kevius'. Also, aren't Kiddush and Havdoloh (when Shabbos comes in and leaves) related? So licheora shouldn't we treat them similarly on that basis as well?
Litvak
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- MPerlman
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20 Aug 2009 23:50 - 26 Jun 2014 00:45 #1348
by MPerlman
Considering that Kiddush is not said in shul in order to fulfill any individual's obligation to make kiddush but rather to publicize the Shabbos, it is understandable that we stand when kiddush is made. On the other hand at home, where we are being motzi others, it makes sense therefore, that we should sit when we make the Brachos because of K'vi'us. In that case, I think three questions are in order.
1. If there would be guests that require Kiddush and they would be eating in shul, would Kiddush be recited for them seated?
2. Considering the above, it makes sense that we stand for Havdalah in shul. However, if there are people in shul that are being yotzei with the Havdala of the chazzan (which happens much more frequently that by Kiddush), should Havdalah not be recited seated?
3. Considering all this, should not Havdalah be recited sitting, at home?
4. If the reason is not because of K'vi'us, and we recite the p'sukim of Havdalah and the Brachos of Kiddush and Havdala standing at least in shul, why do we not recite Kiddush (all of it, not just the pesukim) standing also at home?
In short, some basic understanding is missing here which will take into account both shul and home, people needing to be yotzei and the need to publicize the Shabbos at its entry and exit.
MPerlman
Replied by MPerlman on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
Where is this סתירה?Daniel wrote: הגר"א חידש לישב, ויש סתירה בדבריו
Considering that Kiddush is not said in shul in order to fulfill any individual's obligation to make kiddush but rather to publicize the Shabbos, it is understandable that we stand when kiddush is made. On the other hand at home, where we are being motzi others, it makes sense therefore, that we should sit when we make the Brachos because of K'vi'us. In that case, I think three questions are in order.
1. If there would be guests that require Kiddush and they would be eating in shul, would Kiddush be recited for them seated?
2. Considering the above, it makes sense that we stand for Havdalah in shul. However, if there are people in shul that are being yotzei with the Havdala of the chazzan (which happens much more frequently that by Kiddush), should Havdalah not be recited seated?
3. Considering all this, should not Havdalah be recited sitting, at home?
4. If the reason is not because of K'vi'us, and we recite the p'sukim of Havdalah and the Brachos of Kiddush and Havdala standing at least in shul, why do we not recite Kiddush (all of it, not just the pesukim) standing also at home?
In short, some basic understanding is missing here which will take into account both shul and home, people needing to be yotzei and the need to publicize the Shabbos at its entry and exit.
MPerlman
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- Michael
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21 Aug 2009 20:44 - 26 Jun 2014 00:46 #1359
by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
The Gr'o writes in Bi'ur Hagr'o that one should sit. On the other hand there is a Eidus from ר' חיים מוולוזין that the Gr'o himself used to stand, and for that reason ר' חיים מוולוזין stood also. This is brought in the book Aliyos Eliyohu, page 32. Also ר' יצחק זאב סולובייצ'יק, The Brisker Rov, stood in Havdolo.
In Havdolo one stands because we are accompanying the queen, the Shabbos, and we do that standing.
In Shul everyone stands also in Kiddush, because the reason to sit is for Kevi'us, and this is needed only when one is Motzi someone else. In shul Kiddush is not done to be Motzi anyone, as can be seen in the Or Zaru'a (חלק א סימן תשנב ס"ק ט), that even at his times, about 800 years ago, there were no guests Yotze from the Kiddush in shul. If there will be someone Yotze in Kiddush in shul (as we are thinking to do in KAYJ, see this posting ), it would be an interesting question if then the Mekadesh would stand or sit.
Michael FRBSH
In Havdolo one stands because we are accompanying the queen, the Shabbos, and we do that standing.
In Shul everyone stands also in Kiddush, because the reason to sit is for Kevi'us, and this is needed only when one is Motzi someone else. In shul Kiddush is not done to be Motzi anyone, as can be seen in the Or Zaru'a (חלק א סימן תשנב ס"ק ט), that even at his times, about 800 years ago, there were no guests Yotze from the Kiddush in shul. If there will be someone Yotze in Kiddush in shul (as we are thinking to do in KAYJ, see this posting ), it would be an interesting question if then the Mekadesh would stand or sit.
Michael FRBSH
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- Daniel
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22 Sep 2009 13:25 #1418
by Daniel
Replied by Daniel on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
On the second night of Rosh Hashanah, according to the way R' Hamburger said, we sat for kiddush and then stood for Havdallah. Was this the correct way to do it?
Daniel
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- Michael
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29 Sep 2009 01:04 #1429
by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
In Yaknhaz Kiddush, the Havdolo is secondary, and is Botel to the Kiddush. Therefore one sits in the whole kiddush. (In addition, it is not a regular Havdolo, but it is Havdolo from Kodesh to Kodesh).
Michael FRBSH
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- Israel
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27 Jun 2014 08:52 #2407
by Israel
Replied by Israel on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
So what about when we are being motzei others for havdalah? Wouldn't we need to sit for the brachos just as we do for kiddish.
R' Moshe Tendler tells the story of how R' Joseph Soloveitchik once gave a big speech about the importance of sitting for havadalah to be motzei others. That motzei Shabbos R' Tendler observed R' Soloveitchik standing for havadalah. When asked about the contradiction, R' Soloveitchik said, "my father stands, so I stand."
R' Moshe Tendler tells the story of how R' Joseph Soloveitchik once gave a big speech about the importance of sitting for havadalah to be motzei others. That motzei Shabbos R' Tendler observed R' Soloveitchik standing for havadalah. When asked about the contradiction, R' Soloveitchik said, "my father stands, so I stand."
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- Michael
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24 Jul 2014 02:07 #2411
by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
At Havdolloh one stands, and so do all who are Yotzeh. This is the Psak of the Rishonim and the R'mo. (There is a Sofek what the Gr'o held, and maybe the Gr'o held to stand).
The reason that Havdolloh is different, is because the way to take the Shabbos out (ללוות את השבת) is by standing, therefore standing is considered קביעות.
Michael FRBSH
The reason that Havdolloh is different, is because the way to take the Shabbos out (ללוות את השבת) is by standing, therefore standing is considered קביעות.
Michael FRBSH
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- Israel
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09 Nov 2014 20:38 #2454
by Israel
Replied by Israel on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
Don't we escort the Shabbos in on Friday night Kiddush or do we do that while singing Shalom Aleichem?
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- Michael
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21 Nov 2014 16:11 - 21 Nov 2014 16:12 #2474
by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
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- SBS
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02 Dec 2014 22:00 #2481
by SBS
Replied by SBS on topic Standing/Sitting at Kiddush in home
I have found that these days many are noheig to make kiddush by day on shabbos starting at Al Keyn.....how did this come about?
Steven
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