Placement of the amud of the shliach tzibbur

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10 Jul 2009 01:17 #1120 by Melech
I've seen mekoros that say or imply that the amud of the shaliach tzibbur should be off to the side of the aron, not directly in front of it. Are there mekoros that hold otherwise- i.e. that the amud should be centered in front of the aron kodesh like it is in most Ashkenazi shuls today? If so, what are the mekoros?

Thanks for all the great work,

Melech

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12 Jul 2009 02:33 #1124 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Placement of the amud of the shliach tzibbur
According to Minhag Ashkenaz there is no kipeida in this issue.

Michael FRBSH

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19 Jul 2009 01:55 #1140 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Placement of the amud of the shliach tzibbur
Hungarian Rabbonim at the 19th century, learned from Sefer Chassidim that the Omud should not be facing directly the Aron Kodesh, because we should not request from Hashem פנים מול פנים (face towards face). Therefore they said the Omud should be to the right of Aron Hakodesh.

As for Minhag Ashkenaz - we have pictures and illustrations of many shuls in Ashkenaz, in which you can see that the Omud was facing directly of the Aron Kodesh. This includes the Oruch Laner's Shul in Altona, The R'mo's shul in Krakow, the Pnei Yehoshua's shul in Berlin, and Rav Hirsch's shul in FFAM.
In the Piyyut we add on Musaf Yomim Noro'im we say: גשים מול ארון הקודש באימה.
Also the Sephardim have a similar minhag, since they Daven on the Bimah which is facing directly the Aron Kodesh.

Michael FRBSH

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11 Aug 2009 09:59 #1254 by SBS
What is the reason that the amud is not placed in the center of the shul, and, for that matter, why wouldn't the Shliach Tzibbur daven from the same spot that we read the Torah from? The Shliach Tzibbur could clearly be better heard from the more central location of the Bimah than the Amund which is in the front of the shul in front of the aron. Clearly there is a reason, which leads me to the next question:

Upon what source do some shuls rely on not to have a separate Bimah and Amud? Clearly in Ashkenaz as well as many other parts of the world we are makpid to have the two distinct and separate locations and it is interesting that we see shuls today that only have a bimah.

Steven

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18 Aug 2009 01:16 #1340 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Placement of the amud of the shliach tzibbur
In the 19th century, the Reformers wanted to have the Bimah in the same place as the Omud is, having both in the front and up high, similar to the churches. This was one of the first things the Reform changed (although there were two Orthodox shuls that did so too, as a compromise with the people in the shul who were influenced by Reform).

There are many teshuvos about this issue, and many reasons were brought for having the Bimah in the center of the shul. One is so that Krias Hatorah will be heard better, another is because the Leining is like Mattan Torah on Har Sinai, where Am Yisreol were standing around the mountain, which was higher than everyone, as well as so that we can go with the Lulav around the place where we lein, which is similar to the Mizbe'ach (the Altar).

The Omud has been in the front of the shul for ages, as can be seen in shuls from the 10th century! The reason given for this is that the Shliach Tzibbur is a Shaliach and therefore stands at the front of the crowd.

Michael FRBSH

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18 Aug 2009 21:48 #1344 by SBS
Very helpful explanation. As a follow up to that : how are we able to have instances of where we have Botey Midrashos and the "Bimah" or "Shulchan" that we lein from is not raised higher than floor level? There are no steps that lead up to the bimah, but rather it stands on the same level as the Amud. Maybe from a practical standpoint it is permitted, but clearly it seems we should be aware that this is not optimal and we should avoid it?

Steven

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20 Aug 2009 23:49 #1347 by Litvak
Rav Hamburger's shiur at Torah Way in the UK a couple of years ago, which is online, discusses the inyan of a raised bimah.

Litvak

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