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When is the old Nusach restored

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09 אוג 2009 16:04 #1238 מאת SRainus
When is the old Nusach restored נוצר על ידי SRainus
From the posts about the word "choli" in Asher Yotzar I get the feeling that it is very well documented but still not the practiced Nusach. Am I mistaken? And if not, why is it not the practiced Nusach?

SRainus

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16 אוג 2009 03:26 #1327 מאת Michael
תגובה מMichael בדיון When is the old Nusach restored
The Nusach was changed many years ago in the new printed Siddurim, and eventually influenced everyone's Nusach.

See Avodas Yisroel Siddur (page 37):
רופא כל בשר על שם הכתוב ולכל בשרו מרפא, וכן הגרסה בסדור רב עמרם ובאבודרהם ורוב סידורינו, רק בדפוס ישן משנת רפ"ו וגם בכתבי יד רופא חולי כל בשר, ונדחית נוסחא זאת בשל"ה דף קכ"ח ובמגן אברהם לאו"ח סימן ו'. גם הכוזרי גורס רופא כל בשר וכן בעל העקידה שער צ"ז וכן משמע מגמרא

The Nusach brought there is Cholei chol Bossor (not Choli).

Our Rov, Harav Gans Shlita, pointed out that although in the Shulchan Oruch (Siman 6) the nusach choli or cholei is brought, the Mishna Bruroh brings that the Bach, Shaloh, and Mateh Moshe are opposed to it, and the Taz says that there is place for both nuscha'os. Our Rov holds that we should change back to the old nusach if it was changed by censors or by maskilim, but this definitely is not the case with this Brocho, therefore since the accepted nusach for many years has been Rofei Chol Bosor, we are not intending to change back to the historic Nusach.

Michael

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23 אוג 2009 22:12 #1364 מאת SRainus
תגובה מSRainus בדיון When is the old Nusach restored

Michael wrote: Our Rov holds that we should change back to the old Nusach if it was changes by censors or by maskilim


Considering that Ashkenaz poskim traditionally safeguarded the traditional Minhag Ashkenaz against even erudite and wise Rabbonim of other traditions, according to the Rov, if the changes were made by or made because of Polish Poskim, is even that sufficient reason for keeping the new nusach?

SRainus

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28 אוג 2009 01:02 #1368 מאת Michael
תגובה מMichael בדיון When is the old Nusach restored
Our Rov holds that changes that eventually were adopted in the Ashkenaz Nusach, and have been practiced for many years, we do not change back, even if Lechatchila maybe Rabbonei Ashkenaz would not have made these changes, since now the changes have been done and this is the tradition - we do not change it (לא טוב אנוכי מאבותי). This is on condition that there is a (Rabbinical) source for this different Nusach and for the change. Changes that were made by Maskilim or by the censor our Rov holds we should change back, even if the changes were eventually adopted in Ashkenaz.

Michael

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03 ספט 2009 13:42 #1381 מאת SRainus
תגובה מSRainus בדיון When is the old Nusach restored

Michael wrote: Changes that were made by Maskilim or by the censor our Rov holds we should change back, even if the changes were eventually adopted in Ashkenaz.

According to the Rov, who qualifies to be one of the Maskilim? Does Wolf Heidenheim, where it can be shown that he copied from Satanov, count? Does Zalman Hanne count? Read here what the Noda Bihuda had to write about Zalman Hanne. In a Haskama to קונטרס השגות עלסידור שערי תפילה של ר' זלמן הענא בעל בנין שלמה, the Noda Bihuda writes:

וקם אחריהם המדקדק הגדול שהיה מופלג מאד בחכמה זו בעל בנין שלמה. והדפיס סידור שקראו שערי תפילה. אמנם לרוב קנאתו באלו שקדמוהו שינה כמה דברים בזדון. וכמה דברים אגב חריפתא שבשתא. כי היה נקל בעיניו להמציא כללים חדשים אשר לא נזכר בהמדקדקים הראשונים. ולכך אף שהיה מופלג בחכמה זו אין לסמוך על מה שחידש

SRainus

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04 ספט 2009 00:24 #1382 מאת Michael
תגובה מMichael בדיון When is the old Nusach restored
In general the Rov holds the changes done by R' Zalman Henne should not be accepted.

Michael

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11 ינו 2010 19:40 #1584 מאת SRainus
תגובה מSRainus בדיון When is the old Nusach restored

Michael wrote: Our Rov holds that changes that eventually were adopted in the Ashkenaz Nusach, and have been practiced for many years, we do not change back, even if Lechatchila maybe Rabbonei Ashkenaz would not have made these changes, since now the changes have been done and this is the tradition - we do not change it (לא טוב אנוכי מאבותי). This is on condition that there is a (Rabbinical) source for this different Nusach and for the change. Changes that were made by Maskilim or by the censor our Rov holds we should change back, even if the changes were eventually adopted in Ashkenaz.

And if the Rabbinical source based himself on a Maskil, then the Rav is ready to argue with the Rabbinical source?

SRainus

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14 ינו 2010 15:14 #1586 מאת Michael
תגובה מMichael בדיון When is the old Nusach restored
What example is there for such a case?

Michael

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