Mishebeirach for Governments and Kingdoms
- SBS
- מחבר נושא
- מנותק
- הודעות 112
- תודות התקבלו: 0
1) Said at all?
2) If they are said, where exactly in the davening is it said?
3) Is there a specific original nusach to be said and has it changed?
4) If it was said, was it universally accepted throughout ashkenaz?
5) What is/should be the minhag today?
6) When was the first time such a tefilloh was added to the davening?
Thanks,
Steven
Please התחברות to join the conversation.
- Michael
- מנותק
On the other hand, in the old Rodelheim Machzorim there is no mentioning at all of Hanosen Tshu'oh or any other Brocho.
The Divrei Kehillos (pg 74) writes after the Mi Sheberach Lakohol "הנותן תשועה וכו' לא אמרו בפרנקפורט מעולם, כל ימי אשר להם לבדם נתנה הארץ ולא עבר שר בתוכם", which means that until the days of Harav Hirsch (whom he is referring to by the letters שר) it was not said in FFAM.
Michael
Please התחברות to join the conversation.
- Michael
- מנותק
The Abudraham brings this prayer, and so does the Orchos Chayim (R' Avrohom Milunil) as a יש אומרים. This means that this prayer was said over seven hundred years ago in Spain and in Provence. After about 200 years it came into Italy too, and later spread out to other places as well.
There is no specific Nusach used, (the Abudrohom and Kol Bo do not bring a Nusach). R' Shimon Akiva Baer, a Rav from The Czech Republic who presided in Germany, brings in his Siddur (1707) that Minhag Ashkenaz (Bohemia) is Hanosen Tshu'oh Lamelochim, and the Czech Minhag is to say Ho'Elokim asher Boro es Hashomayim. But there actually were some communities in Germany who said the second Nusach, and there were also other Nuscho'os used, however Hanosen Tshu'oh was the most common of them all.
Generally this prayer was said under governmental compulsion, or when there was a reason to say it in order to keep the proper relationship with the governments.
The prayer also varied according to political needs.
At the time of the Weimar republic, after WWI, there wasn't a king in Germany any more, therefore they had to change the Nusach (as mentioned above, in the Rodelheim Siddur we find now a Gebet fur das Vaterland, and not a prayer for the king).
At Hitler's (ימח שמו) time - it became even more complicated.
If a Kehillo used to say Hanosen Teshu'oh, they can stop it (or change the nusach) if they need to do so for good reason.
I also discussed this issue with a Yekki from NY, who sent me the following very interesting list:
1. In Russian siddurim you’ll find prayers for the Czar and his families.
2. There were any number of prayers for Napoleon as well, which would place the origin before 1800
3. In the Karlsruhe siddur of 1794 we find Hanosen Tshua
4. In the Vienna edition of 1803 there is nothing
5. Hanosen Tshua is found in the 1825 (second edition) of the Roedelheim Safa Brurah
6. It does not exist in the Hanau edition of 1784
7. Hanosen Tshua is found in the Metz siddur of 1788 as well as the Berlin edition of 1786
8. It is unknown in the Venice edition of 1598
9. Finally, Hanosen Tshua is found in the siddur of the Shela Hakadosh of 1717
10. I have also seen prayers for Frederick the Great, which would place it about 1760.
11. In the Jewish Encyclopedia (vol. 7, page 834) there is a picture there of an English siddur of 1714 that has a prayer for Queen Anne.
Michael
Please התחברות to join the conversation.
- Litvak
- מנותק
- הודעות 54
- תודות התקבלו: 0
Litvak
Please התחברות to join the conversation.
- Michael
- מנותק
One is from the Carpentras Siddur, a Siddur following a separate Nusach, very different from Ashkenaz or Sepharad and probably has its origins in Nusach Provence. Please click here for the Nusach.
The second is from Germany at the time of Hitler (ימח שמו). Please click here for that Nusach.
Michael
Please התחברות to join the conversation.
- MPerlman
- מנותק
- הודעות 121
- תודות התקבלו: 1
Does this mean that during the days of Rav Hirsch it was said? Or including RSRH's days?Michael wrote: The Divrei Kehillos (pg 74) writes after the Mi Sheberach Lakohol "הנותן תשועה וכו' לא אמרו בפרנקפורט מעולם, כל ימי אשר להם לבדם נתנה הארץ ולא עבר שר בתוכם", which means that until the days of Harav Hirsch (whom he is referring to by the letters שר) it was not said in FFAM.
Does this mean that the Nusach from the Roedelheim that we have in shul is from during the Hitlerite era?He wrote: The second is from Germany at the time of Hitler (ימח שמו). Please click here for that Nusach.
And my final question is: Does all this mean that in Frankfurt a prayer for the government was not said at that point in the davening or elsewhen?
MPerlman
Please התחברות to join the conversation.
- SBS
- מחבר נושא
- מנותק
- הודעות 112
- תודות התקבלו: 0
Steven
Please התחברות to join the conversation.
- Michael
- מנותק
Mi Sheberach for the government was not said in FFAM until Rav Hirsch started it in his shul. It may still not have been said in the other shuls, but in Rav Hirsch's shul it was said since he came, and R' Shlomo Zalman Geiger was upset with this change of Minhag, therefore he wrote what he wrote.MPerlman wrote: Does this mean that during the days of Rav Hirsch it was said? Or including RSRH's days?
And my final question is: Does all this mean that in Frankfurt a prayer for the government was not said at that point in the davening or elsewhen?
The Nusach of this Tefilloh was changed many times, and in the Rodelheim you can find different Nuschous. The last nusach which was said in Hitler's times is the one printed today in the Goldschmidt edition too.MPerlman wrote: Does this mean that the Nusach from the Roedelheim that we have in shul is from during the Hitlerite era?
Steven wrote: In the picture you sent of the Nusach from a German siddur, I assume that this was not one from Frankfurt as it has the Ye'hi Ratzon for Rosh Chodesh bentching which I believe was not said according to nusach Frankfurt. Is that correct?
The picture is of a Rodelheim Siddur, which is not a Frankfurter Siddur, but is a Siddur that was meant to be used by as many people as possible, including people Davening Nusach Polin. As you mentioned - In FFAM Yehi Rotzon was not said before Mevorchim.
Michael FRBSH
Please התחברות to join the conversation.